CAP 33 - Part 5 - Defining Moves

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Da Pizza Man

Pizza Time
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Going to make a few suggestions

Scald should be moved to optional moves. Scald is strong enough of a move that I think making it required feels like it's going to be very restricting for a lot of stats submissions to deal with. I do think that there are plenty of valid routes that we can take that involve not utilizing Scald, and allowing users to choose between Scald and Surf would make the stage as a whole a lot more diverse in the types of submissions that we would see.

Jungle Healing / Lunar Blessing should be removed outright. I echo spoo's sentiment regarding this move that these are something that should generally be held to a higher standard due to their status as legendary signature moves, and these moves don't do nearly enough to make me believe that they do enough to meet this standard. As a recovery move, while I could see an argument for Jungle Healing > Lunar Blessing on a bulky set-up sweeper, on a wall they are just entirely outclassed. As status recovery, I similarly don't see a whole lot of value here. Looking at Refresh, we can see that with the exception of SM Blastoise (Who really only ran it due to the move's Z-Move effect), pretty much everything that historically run the move has been a bulky set-up sweeper, as most walls really would rather want to be running some sort of utility that helps them make progress over occasionally protecting themselves from status moves.

Disable should be removed outright. I was going to bring this up during the last round of questions, but I pulled a binpin and forgot. This move is just bad, end of story. The situations where we would find some sort of use out of the move are quite minimal, and in most of those cases, Taunt/Encore just does a much better job overall.
 

Zetalz

Expect nothing, deliver less
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Moving Scald to optional seems fine, also think it's potentially worth putting Hydro Pump in optional as it has applications for the kind of builds that Surf would find itself on. Not hard to imagine a set akin to Scarf Fini in SS on 33 and knowing Hydro calcs going into stats would be nice.

spoo (and DPM as I was writing this) spittin' straight facts about JH/LB so I won't regurg, heavily agree with cutting them entirely.

I think it's worth slashing Heart Swap with Haze. Functionally it's going to be the exact same as Haze 70% of the time but the few positive applications against Hemo, Mana and CM users it has are quite neat. Does have the 1 pitfall over Haze of being useless into NP Ghold which may or may not even be a big deal for it if we end up with stuff like Scald or Knock in the kit as well.
 

snake

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A few quick thoughts:

Agreeing with moving to Scald to optional. Echoing Zetalz - I think Hydro Pump should be moved to optional at minimum, maybe even required, just so stat spreads know the interaction with Hydro Pump (a very standard Water-type move). Even with a lower special attack stat, the extra power is relevant for a really fast Pokemon to be able to push for KOs.

At the very least, Lunar Blessing needs to be axed. 8 PP is just not going to cut it for a wall. Jungle Healing's 16 PP makes it slightly better, but 25% healing is just so meager. Sure, it helps with hazard chip, but getting back to 100% HP due to actual attacks will just take too long.

I don't really want to throw another hazard onto another CAP, but I wanted to bring this up: Stealth Rock does seem fairly decent since Water-type STAB threatens Great Tusk and Equilibra. I'm not really interested in other hazards, and I'm bringing it up in Defining Moves in case it's relevant in stats - calcing against Great Tusk and Equilibra more explicitly.
 

Brambane

protect the wetlands
is a Contributor Alumnus
I despise Stealth Rock because what it implies from teambuilding.

CAP33 has three weaknesses, Electric/Grass/Poison. Equilibra and Great Tusk, the spinners, cover two, and Venomicon covers two. So you already have a good foundation of a core. With Equilibra and something like Dragapult you get a pretty functional (and very ShSw, replace the Fini with CAP33) team structure starting to form.

The thing with Stealth Rock 33 means it frees the pressure of running Stealth Rock from Venomicon and to a much lesser extent, Great Tusk. And I think the fact that Venomicon often has to fill that role for teams if you want it to fit well is a lot healthier for the format. I don't want to live in a world where Venomicon can play around even more with its moveslots.

So independently, CAP33 with SR sounds very cool. In the concept of what it does for the meta, I would rather not. Kinda weird to focus on book, it is just THAT mon. We live in a library where few posters even know how to read.
 
Alright people, let's wrap this up! Thanks for the feedback on the defining moves list, I've made a few changes in accordance:
  • Scald moved from Required to Optional
  • Jungle Healing / Lunar Blessing removed from Optional
  • Added Hydro Pump as Optional

This leaves us with the following list:

Required Moves:
  • Moonblast (if special)
  • Surf (if special)
  • Play Rough (if physical)
  • Liquidation (if physical)
  • 50% Recovery Move
  • At least one of [Will-o-Wisp, Thunder Wave, Glare, Nuzzle]
  • At least one of [Encore, Taunt]
Optional Moves:
  • Spirit Break (if physical)
  • Scald
  • Hydro Pump
  • Ice Coverage Moves
  • Ground Coverage Moves
  • Strength Sap
  • Disable
  • Haze
  • Knock Off

I think this stage has been fruitful in terms of the direction we'll be taking for CAP33, while still being open enough to leave room for multiple different routes to approach this process. We'll get to solidifying our movesets once we know our base stats, and we can definitely make use of this list in order to inform discussion at that point. I'm passing the baton to Da Pizza Man for now, see you soon!
 

ausma

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I'm going to -1 Disable as I don't personally feel like it's an option that will actually affect stats in any meaningful way, in addition to the fact that it feels almost entirely outclassed by the utility of Taunt, status, and Encore that already dabble in shutdown-oriented disruption. That doesn't mean I'm against it at its core, but I don't feel it can really be classed as defining when the utility moves the list requires accomplish its goal but with wider and more efficient application. Knock Off and Haze also just add insult to injury.

Other than that, this list is looking fantastic, and gets my approval! Let's move on!
 
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